与FT共进午餐之爱德华斯诺登(下)
He confirms he received no money from the movie, adding of his tangential experience of Hollywood: When I was told that there was going to be a film made about me, it was a scary thing, one of the most terrifying things I can imagine.
他证实自己没从这部电影拿到一分钱，倒是对好莱坞多懂了一点皮毛。当我被告知有人要拍一部关于我的电影时，感觉很吓人，这是我能想到的最可怕的事情之一。
But, looking back, I hope it helps, I’m cautiously optimistic that it will.
但回过头来看，我希望它能有所帮助，我谨慎乐观地认为它会有作用的。
He looks back over the period since the revelations and reflects that all three branches of government in the US — Congress, courts, president — have changed their position on mass surveillance.
他回顾了爆料以来这段时期的情况，认为美国政府的三大支柱——国会、法院和总统——已经改变了对大规模监听的立场。
We can actually start to impose more oversight on spies, rather than giving them a free pass to do whatever simply because we’re scared, which is understandable but clearly not ethical.
真的，我们可以开始对间谍实施更多监督了，而不能仅仅因为我们害怕，就给他们一张可以为所欲为的免费通行证，这可以理解，但显然不道德。
What of subsequent developments in the UK, where the government’s response has been to propose laws that not only sanction, post hoc, the intelligence activities that were revealed to be happening, but extend them? He says it was not his intention to tell the world how to structure their laws, but to give People a voice in the process.
英国后来的情况怎么样？英国政府的回应是提议立法，不仅批准那些被披露正在进行的情报活动，还要扩大范围。
The laws have gotten worse in some countries.
他表示，自己的本意不是要告诉世界如何制定法律，而是让人民有机会在这个过程中发声。
France has gone very far, so too, of course, countries like Russia, China.
在有些国家，法律已经变得更糟。法国已经走得很远，俄罗斯、中国等国当然也是这样。
In Britain there’s an authoritarian trend.
英国出现了一种威权主义趋势。
We don’t allow police to enter and search any home.
我们不允许警察入室搜查。
We don’t typically reorder the operation of a free society for the convenience of the police — because that is the definition of a police state, he says, mopping up the last of the rice.
通常，我们不会为了方便警察行事而重新安排一个自由社会的运转秩序——因为那便是警察国家的定义，他说着大口吃完最后一点米饭。
And yet some spies and officials are trying to persuade us that we should.
但一些间谍和官员正试图说服我们应该这样做。
Now, I would argue there’s no real question that police in a police state would be more effective than those in a free and liberal society where the police operate under tighter constraints.
我得说，警察国家的警察无疑会比一个自由、开放社会的警察更高效，因为在自由社会，警察的行动受到更严格的约束。
But which one would you rather live in?
但你更愿意生活在哪一种社会呢？
He has finished his curry and pronounces it quite good.
他吃完了咖喱饭，说非常好吃。
The crab cakes are abandoned after a bite. Less good, he says.
蟹饼只咬了一口就被放到一边，不太好吃，他说。
We order ice cream — vanilla, strawberry and chocolate for him, sorbet for me.
我们点了冰淇淋，他要了香草、草莓和巧克力口味的，我选了冰沙。
The voice on the phone launches into a complicated explanation of why, with five scoops in all, we can have a discount.
电话那头的人详细地解释了为什么我们可以享受折扣——总共给了我们五把勺子。
Does he never lose sleep at night wondering whether Isis terrorists might not have gained some useful advantage from the information he disclosed?
他在夜里从来不失眠吗？他难道不会琢磨伊斯兰国(ISIS)恐怖分子是否从他披露的信息中获得了一些可以利用的优势？
Well, firstly, he says, in all the recent European attacks the suspects were known to the authorities, who thus had the ability to target them without having to scoop up everyone else’s data as well.
噢，首先，他说，在欧洲最近发生的所有袭击事件中，当局知道这些嫌疑人，他们有能力把他们列为目标，而不必搜集所有其他人的数据。
Secondly, he points out, Osama bin Laden stopped using a mobile phone in 1998 — not because of leaks to newspapers but because there is an aggressive form of Darwinism in terrorist circles.
其次，他指出，奥萨马•本•拉登(Osama bin Laden)从1998年就不使用移动电话了——不是因为谁对报纸泄的密，而是因为恐怖分子的圈子里有一种生猛的达尔文主义。
Long before we, the public, know about any of these surveillance measures, they have already known for years because, if they had not, they are already dead.
早在我们——公众——知晓任何这类监听措施之前，他们已经知道好多年了，因为如果他们不知道的话，他们早就死了。
But, he goes on, let’s say that the newspapers had decided this should not be public.
但是，他接着说，假设那些报纸决定这些资料不应被公开。
Let’s say the intelligence services had been able to continue using these programs in secret.
假设情报机构能够继续秘密进行这些监听项目。
Would it have stopped any of the terrorist attacks that have occurred in the last three years? There’s no public evidence that that’s the case.
那样能阻止过去三年发生的任何一起恐怖袭击吗？没有公开证据能证明这一点。
In fact, there’s no classified evidence that that’s the case, or else we’d be reading it in the newspapers.
实际上，也没有秘密证据能证明，否则我们就会在报纸上看到。
We move on to talking about stories alleging Russian hacking of the NSA itself and of the Democratic party’s governing body, the Democratic National Committee.
我们接着谈论美国国家安全局本身以及美国民主党的管理机构——民主党全国委员会(Democratic National Committee)遭到俄罗斯黑客入侵的传闻。
The former involved a group calling itself the Shadow Brokers, who threatened to auction very sophisticated alleged NSA surveillance tools.
前者涉及一个自称影子经纪人的组织，威胁要拍卖非常先进的据说是美国国家安全局所使用的监控工具。
The latter was a collection of DNC emails published — to general embarrassment — by WikiLeaks in July.
后者涉及维基解密(WikiLeaks)7月公布的民主党全国委员会的一批邮件——让民主党上下都脸上无光。
The Shadow Broker leak, says Snowden, doesn’t strike me as a whistleblower: that strikes me as a warning.
斯诺登说，影子经纪人泄密事件并未让我觉得他们是泄密者，我觉得这是一次警告，是通过信息泄露的方式传达政治信息。
It’s political messaging being carried out through information disclosure.
至于民主党全国委员会遭攻击事件，正如他所言，人们普遍认为这是俄罗斯黑客所为。
And the DNC hack, where, as he observes, the conventional wisdom is that it was the Russians? This is part of the problem of this surveillance free-for-all that we’re allowing to occur by refusing to moderate our own behaviour.
这是这种不加限制的监控行为带来的一部分问题，正是我们拒绝克制自己的行为才使得这种状况得以发生。
We’ve set a kind of global precedent that anything is possible and nothing is prohibited.
我们树立了一种全球先例——一切皆有可能，没有什么是被禁止的。
Now, the fact the DNC got hacked is not surprising and interesting.
民主党全国委员会被侵入的事实并不令人觉得惊讶和有趣。
We’re hacking political parties around the world, so is every country.
我们会侵入世界各国的政党，每个国家都在这样做。
What makes it interesting is that some of the things taken from this server were published afterwards.
这件事有趣的地方是，从该服务器窃取的一些信息后来被公之于众。
That’s quite novel.
这一点非常新鲜。
I think.
我觉得。
Which makes him think what? That it’s for political effect.
什么让他这么想？这是为了起到政治效果。
He says — as someone who used to try and do this sort of thing to the Chinese — that it would be easy to attribute the hack to whoever had done it.
他说，很容易将这次攻击算到做过这种事的人头上——就像某些人过去常常试图这么对待中国人。
But this creates a problem because, let’s say, the NSA has the smoking gun that says the Russians hacked the DNC, and they tell us the Russians hacked the DNC, how can we be sure? It presumes a level of trust that no longer exists.
然而，这会带来一个问题，因为，假设说，美国国家安全局掌握了俄罗斯人侵入民主党全国委员会的确凿证据，并且他们告诉我们俄国人侵入了民主党全国委员会，我们又如何确信呢？这么做假定了一种不复存在的信任度。
The ice creams arrive along with an espresso, replacing the first set of dishes on the bed.
冰淇淋和意式浓缩咖啡一齐到了，换掉了床上的第一套餐具。
Snowden spills a bit of chicken curry on the duvet and apologetically mops it up with a towel.
斯诺登不慎把一点鸡肉咖喱汁洒到了羽绒被上，他带着歉意用纸巾拭去。
Aren’t we beginning to discover that no digital databases are secure? We are living through a crisis in computer security the likes of which we’ve never seen, he says.
我们不是正开始发现没有哪个数字化的数据库是安全的？他说：我们正在经历一场计算机安全危机，类似危机我们从未见过。
But until we solve the fundamental problem, which is that our policy incentivises offence to a greater degree than defence, hacks will continue unpredictably and they will have increasingly larger effects and impacts.
然而，我们的政策对攻击的鼓励多于对防御的鼓励，在我们解决这个根本问题以前，黑客攻击还会以不可预测的方式继续出现，其后果和影响也会越来越大。
The answer, he thinks, is that there ought to be some form of liability for negligence in software architecture, such as would apply in the food industry.
他认为，要解决这个问题，应该规定在软件架构的设计中存在疏忽行为须得承担某种责任，就如食品行业的做法一样。
He adds, drily: People from my tribe will be extraordinarily mad at me for suggesting regulation in the terms of negligence for software security.
他淡淡地接着说道：我提议针对软件安全的过失方面制定规章，圈子里的人听到会气得发疯。
He has finished his ice cream and declines coffee.
他吃完了冰淇淋，谢绝了咖啡。
Life in Moscow is getting better, he says: I’m more open now than I’ve been since 2013.
他说，在莫斯科的生活越来越好了，比起2013年事情发生后的一段时期，我现在更开放了。
He sees few people — such meetings as this are rare — and divides his time between public speaking (which pays the bills) and devising tools to protect the digital security of journalists.
他见的人很少，类似这次的会晤十分少见。他的时间主要用在公开演讲（由此带来的收入用于支付各种账单）和设计供记者使用的保护数字信息安全的工具。
He would rather not go into the family stuff or how often he sees Lindsay Mills, his partner, who was left behind in Hawaii when he quit his job for the NSA there and disappeared to Hong Kong.
他不愿谈及家事，也不肯透露多久见一次林赛•米尔斯(Lindsay Mills)。后者是他的女朋友，在他从美国国家安全局离职跑到香港以后被留在了夏威夷。
His American lawyer, Ben Wizner at the American Civil Liberties Union, is reported to be preparing to launch a petition to President Barack Obama to grant Snowden a pardon before he steps down.
据报道，他的美国律师、美国公民自由联盟(American Civil Liberties Union)的本•维茨纳(Ben Wizner)正准备向美国总统巴拉克•奥巴马(Barack Obama)请愿，希望奥巴马在卸任前赦免斯诺登。
Snowden will only say: Of course I hope they’re successful but this has never really been about what happens to me.
对此斯诺登只表示：我当然希望他们成功，不过这完全与我个人境遇无关。
No matter how the outcome shakes out, it’s something I can live with.
不论结果如何，我都可以接受。
His chances of a happy ending under President Donald Trump would be zero, I observe.
我看，若是唐纳德•特朗普(Donald Trump)当了总统，他这事得以善终的可能性必然为零。
What about under President Hillary Clinton? You’re trying to drag me into a political quagmire, he protests.
但如果是希拉里•克林顿(Hillary Clinton)总统呢？他抗议道：你在把我拖入一个政治难题。
He collects himself, looking intensely at the ground, before sidestepping the question: I think we should have better choices.
他紧紧地盯着地面，凝神想了一会儿，还是没有正面回答这个问题，而是说道：我认为，我们应该有更好的选择。
We’re a country of 330m people and we seem to be being asked to make a choice between individuals whose lives are defined by scandal.
我们是个拥有3.3亿人的国家，而我们却似乎被要求在各个丑闻缠身的人之间做出选择。
I simply think we should be capable of more.
我就是认为，我们应该能有更多选择。
If he’s tough on the options in US politics, his willingness to tweet criticism of Russian politics to his 2.3m followers has not gone unnoticed.
如果说他在谈到美国政治的选择空间时措辞严厉，那么人们没有忽视的是，他很愿意在Twitter网站上，向他的230万粉丝发表对俄罗斯政治的批评。
A lot of people who care about me tell me to shut up, but if I was married to my own self-interest, I never would have left Hawaii.
许多关心我的人让我闭嘴，然而如果我只在乎个人利益，我就不会离开夏威夷了。
I can’t fix the human rights situation in Russia, and realistically my priority is to fix my own country first, because that’s the one to which I owe the greatest loyalty.
我无法改善俄罗斯的人权状况，而且说实在的，我首要关心的是先改善我自己的国家，因为它才是我怀有最大忠诚的国度。
But though the chances are it will make no difference, maybe it’ll help.
尽管很可能改变不了什么，但也许会起作用呢。
He gathers up his dark glasses: it’s time for him to melt into the Moscow crowds.
他拿起墨镜——隐入莫斯科人群中的时间到了。
A final question: the Stone film shows him spiriting his trove of secrets out of the NSA on a micro-SD card hidden in a Rubik’s Cube. True or false?
我提了最后一个问题：在斯通的电影中，他通过藏在一块魔方里的内存卡，把大量机密带出了美国国家安全局，这是不是真的？
Oliver confirmed in an interview recently that that’s a touch of the dramatic licence, but that’s only because I wouldn’t confirm or deny how it really happened.
奥利弗在最近一次访谈中证实这是戏剧手法，但他这么说只是因为我不愿证实真实情况是怎样的，也不愿否认。
I will say that I gave Rubik’s Cubes to everyone in my office, it’s true.
我只会说我给办公室里的每个人都送了魔方，这一点是真的。
I really did that.
我确实这么做了。
And with that he is gone.
他说完这句话就走了。
