活宝罗根与弗兰科谈《刺杀金正恩》

In a previous film, Seth Rogen and James Franco experienced a comic vision of the end of the world, but their new movie, “The Interview,” has had serious fallout, including a devastating corporate hack and threats against theaters showing the film.

塞斯·罗根(Seth Rogen)和詹姆斯·弗兰科(James Franco，也译作付兰兰)在他们的上一部影片里体验了一回喜剧版的世界末日，但他俩的新片《采访》(The Interview，也译作《刺杀金正恩》)带来了严重后果，包括公司遭到灾难性的黑客入侵，放映该片的影院也受到威胁。

Directed by Mr. Rogen and his creative partner, Evan Goldberg, “The Interview” casts Mr. Franco as Dave Skylark, a fatuous celebrity TV journalist who is granted an interview with Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader. Their impending on-air sit-down strains Skylark’s bond with his loyal producer (Mr. Rogen) and attracts the attention of the C.I.A., which wants him to assassinate Mr. Kim (played by Randall Park).

《采访》由罗根和他的创作搭档埃文·戈德堡(Evan Goldberg)导演，由弗兰科饰演主角戴夫·斯凯拉克(Dave Skylark)——一个糊涂的著名电视记者，得到机会采访北朝鲜领导人金正恩。这场即将到来的现场采访令斯凯拉克与他忠诚的制作人（罗根饰）之间关系变得紧张，还招来了中央情报局的关注，中情局想让他去暗杀金正恩（由兰多尔·朴[Randall Park]饰演）。

In addition to mocking news-gathering and geopolitics, the movie pokes fun at the 15-year friendship of Mr. Rogen and Mr. Franco, which began on the cult NBC series “Freaks and Geeks” and has continued in hit films like “This Is the End.”

除了嘲讽如今的新闻采集和地缘政治，这部电影还拿罗根与弗兰克15年的好基友关系寻开心，两人的友情始于NBC的小众电视剧《怪胎与书呆》(Freaks and Geeks)，一直延续到《世界末日》(This Is the End)等热门电影。

The real-life government of North Korea did not appreciate the senTiment of “The Interview,” denouncing it as a “most blatant act of terrorism and war” and threatening to undertake “a merciless countermeasure.” There is suspicion that the movie is a catalyst for the hacking of computers at Sony, an act that North Korea has hailed as “a righteous deed” while denying responsibility.

现实生活中的北朝鲜政府不怎么欣赏《采访》中的情趣，称它是“最露骨的恐怖主义与战争”，威胁对之实施“无情的报复”。有人怀疑这部电影导致了对索尼公司电脑的黑客袭击，北朝鲜称黑客的行动是“正义行为”，但拒绝对此负责。

The hack itself has resulted in the release of sensitive studio information, including the film’s $44 million budget and other, more embarrassing details, a ripple effect that has astounded the film’s creators. “It is very surreal,” Mr. Rogen said in an interview on Monday amid rapidly changing circumstances that have led them to cancel several media appearances. “It’s not something that we expected at all.”

黑客行为导致公司的许多敏感信息泄露，其中也包括这部电影的4400万美元预算，除此之外，还有更加令人尴尬的若干细节，其连锁反应令影片创作者们大为震惊。“这种感觉非常超现实，”罗根说，随着境况急转直下，他们不得不取消了若干媒体见面会，但还是在周一接受了采访。“我们根本没有预料到这种事。”

Mr. Rogen and Mr. Franco first sat down with The Times to talk about the movie before the effects of the hacking were fully known, and they were more blithely amused by their handiwork. Here are edited excerpts from that discussion and a follow-up conversation with Mr. Rogen.

目前黑客袭击的后果尚不完全分明，罗根与弗兰克接受了《纽约时报》的当面采访，谈起这部电影。对于自己的作品，他们更多的感受是欢乐。谈话经过编辑节选，事后补充采访过罗根。

“The Interview” was intended as a fun, goofball comedy. How do you feel about the global consequences it’s had?

《采访》的本意是拍一部疯狂好玩的喜剧。你们怎么看待它引起的全球性后果？

SETH ROGEN No one has officially told me our movie, 100 percent, has proven to be the cause of any of this stuff. We’re not the first people to shed light on how crazy North Korea is, the myths that exist there and the oddities of the regime. “The Daily Show,” on a nightly basis, makes jokes about real-life events. “South Park” does it on a weekly basis.

塞斯·罗根：没有人正式通知我说，完全是我们的电影引发了这些后果。在我们之前早有人拍摄过北朝鲜有多么疯狂，那里有着什么样的神话，以及那个政权的奇人怪事。《每日秀》(The Daily Show)每天都在拿现实生活中的事开玩笑，《南方公园》(South Park)也是每星期都这么干。

Do you think a film about an assassination attempt on Kim Jong-un and a hack on the studio releasing it could be unrelated?

你们拍了一部关于暗杀金正恩的电影，而黑客袭击了发行这部影片的电影公司，你们觉得这两件事之间可能毫无关系吗？

ROGEN I have no idea. It could be some hacker that knew the situation with the movie and was using this as an opportunity to mess with a giant corporation. Clearly, whoever did it has knowledge of the movie’s existence. But by the time it happened, millions and millions of people who could have many different motives had knowledge of the movie’s existence.

罗根：我不知道。有可能是了解这部电影情况的黑客利用它作为契机去搞乱一家大公司。但是当这件事发生的时候，成千上百万有着各种动机的人都知道这部影片的存在。

Even before “The Interview” was denounced by North Korea, was it controversial that you made Kim Jong-un its villain?

在北朝鲜谴责《采访》之前，你们对于把金正恩塑造为反面人物这一点有没有争议？

ROGEN There was a lot of discussion. But it’s not an edgy position to take. It’s not like, “Well, politically, you’ve got to look at both sides.” He is bad. It’s controversial to him. But to everyone else, it’s fine. To their credit, [Sony] let us do it.

罗根：我们做了很多讨论，但是这并不是一个黑白分明的立场。我们说，“这个，从政治上，你得一分为二地看问题。”他是坏人。这一点对他来说是有争议的，但其他人觉得这没问题，值得称道的是，他们（索尼）让我们拍了这部片子。

Was there anything the studio wouldn’t allow?

有没有什么事是电影公司不允许的？

ROGEN They made us digitally change some photos and images, because it was decided they weren’t [legally] cleared. We couldn’t source the photographer in North Korea who took the photograph of Kim Il-sung [Kim Jong-un’s grandfather] 65 years ago. He could sue us. There was a moment where they were like: “They’ve threatened war over the movie. You kill him [Kim Jong-un]. Would you consider not killing him?” And we were like, “Nope.”

罗根：他们允许我们用数码手段修改了一些照片和图像，因为他们决定不（在法律上）公开宣布这一点。我们没法给65年前为金日成（金正恩的祖父）拍照的北朝鲜摄影师署名。他可以起诉我们。有那么一阵，公司说：“因为这部电影，他们威胁要开战，你们杀死了他（金正恩）。你们能不能不杀他？”我们说：“不能。”

Were you frightened by the initial ambiguous threats that North Korea made?

北朝鲜一开始做出了模糊的威胁，你们害怕了吗？

JAMES FRANCO They went after Obama as much as us. Because [they think] Obama actually produced the movie.

詹姆斯·弗兰克：他们追着奥巴马，也追着我们。因为（他们觉得）其实是奥巴马拍了这部电影。

ROGEN They don’t have freedom of speech there, so they don’t get that people make stuff.

罗根：他们没有言论自由，所以他们不明白人们会编造故事。

There was a period during September and October when Kim Jong-un wasn’t seen in public. Were you concerned this could affect the movie?

九月到十月期间，有段时间金正恩没在公众面前亮相，你们有没有觉得这会影响这部电影？

ROGEN It was a weird position to be in, where you were concerned for Kim Jong-un’s safety, for your own financial well-being. [Laughter] Throughout this process, we made relationships with certain people who work in the government as consultants, who I’m convinced are in the C.I.A. After he had been gone for like a week, I emailed a guy, and was like, “What’s the deal?” The response I got was: “He’s having ankle surgery. He’ll be back in a couple weeks.” And then two weeks later, it’s like: He had ankle surgery; he was back.

罗根：那种局面很奇怪，你会因为自己的财务状况而担心金正恩的安危（笑）。整个过程中，我们都和某些在政府当顾问的人保持联系，我相信他们肯定是给中情局干活。金正恩消失了大约一星期的时候，我给一个家伙发电子邮件，问：“什么情况？”得到的回答是：“他做了脚踝手术，得休养两星期。”然后过了两星期，结果是：他做了脚踝手术，他回来了。

FRANCO Seth knew before The New York Times!

弗兰科：塞斯比《纽约时报》先知道这件事！

It’s like when the Rock knew, before everyone else, that Osama bin Laden had been killed.

这有点像“巨石”（the Rock，影星Dwayne Johnson的绰号——译注）比其他人都提前知道奥萨马·本·拉登(Osama bin Laden)的死讯。

FRANCO He was there.

弗兰科：他就在现场。

ROGEN He’s the secret shooter. That would be the best cross-promotional campaign of all time. “Go see my new movie: I killed Osama bin Laden.” I’d see every “Fast and Furious” movie for the rest of my life.

罗根：他是秘密射击手，这可是史上最好的交叉宣传了。“去看我的新片吧，我杀了奥萨马·本·拉登。”这下我肯定会看《速度与激情》(Fast and Furious)的所有续集了。

Was “The Interview” created specifically as a vehicle for the two of you?

《采访》是为你俩量身定制的吗？

ROGEN The idea was around for a long time. The first script was about Kim Jong-il [Mr. Kim’s father]. In my head, the Dave Skylark character was much more normal and grounded — more like Ryan Seacrest. We thought maybe it would be a more serious role, and the producer would be the funny one. Wouldn’t it be funny to pair me with a more serious actor, like Matt Damon? And then Dan Sterling wrote a draft of the script, and the character was just way more crazy than we thought. And that’s when we started to think Franco could do it.

罗根：我们思考这个创意已经有一段时间了。最初的剧本是关于金正日的（金正恩的父亲）。在我头脑里，戴夫·斯凯拉克这个角色应该更普通、更实际一点——更像瑞安·西克莱斯特(Ryan Seacrest)。我们觉得他应该是个更严肃的角色，制作人那个角色应该更有趣一点。给我配一个马特·达蒙(Matt Damon)之类的严肃演员不是很好玩吗？后来丹·斯特林(Dan Sterling)写了剧本草稿，主持人这个角色比我们想象的要疯狂得多。然后我们就开始考虑让弗兰科来演这个角色。

FRANCO Crazier, but also more grounded. With these movies, the secret ingredient is the friendship. Even on “This Is the End,” my character was shallow, he cared about his house and his clothes more than his friends. Then you just make him care about this [Rogen] character. Then it becomes a love triangle with Kim Jong-un.

弗兰科：更疯狂，但也更实际。在这些电影里，友谊是隐秘的成分。就算在《世界末日》里，我的角色很肤浅，他在乎自己的房子和衣服多于在乎朋友。然后你让他去关心那个（罗根的）角色。这和金正恩形成了一个有爱的三角关系。

ROGEN Then his whole motivation to do the mission is just to make me happy, essentially — just to placate me enough that I won’t leave him.

罗根：其实他做这个任务的全部目的就是为了让我高兴——就是为了安抚我，好让我别离开他。

Did you know you’d be friends right away when you met on “Freaks and Geeks”?

你们在《怪胎与书呆》中相遇时，就知道你们会成为朋友吗？

FRANCO I was just writing some poems about it. It sounds silly, but I think they’re actually pretty good. There was a period where Seth, Jason [Segel] and I all went to Jason’s house, and they would sit at one end of the room and smoke weed.

弗兰科：我为这个写过诗。听上去很傻，但我觉得它们还不错。有段时间，塞斯、杰森·席格尔(Jason Segel)和我到杰森家里去，他们坐在屋子一头抽大麻。

ROGEN He literally would sit in the corner.

罗根：他就坐在角落里。

FRANCO We’d read the scripts a few times, and then there wasn’t that much to read. So we’d just watch Kubrick movies. Seth was writing stuff that we all talked about doing. Today, we would have shot it on our iPhones, at least. But we didn’t have the technology or the wherewithal to get a camera and do our little things.

弗兰克：我们有时读剧本，然后就没什么可读的了。我们就看库布里克(Kubrick)的电影。塞斯写东西，我们都说要拍。换了今天，我们可能至少会用iPhone把这些东西拍下来。但我们当时没有这个技术，也没有钱去弄摄像机拍我们的小东西。

Did that camaraderie continue after the show?

拍片结束后你们还保持着同志情谊吗？

FRANCO There was a point where most people on the show didn’t like me, because I took myself too seriously. I thought I was Marlon Brando or something. Then I pushed Busy [Philipps, a co-star] over, by accident. So everybody didn’t like me, I think, except for Seth.

弗兰科：有那么一段时间，片子里的人都不喜欢我，因为我把自己太当回事了。我觉得自己是马龙·白兰度(Marlon Brando)，后来我意外推倒了贝茜·菲利普斯（Busy Philipps，片中的另一位演员）。所以我觉得大家都不喜欢我，除了塞斯。

ROGEN When the show ended, I didn’t talk to you for years. We kind of went our separate ways, for a long time.

罗根：电视剧结束以后，我有好几年都没跟你说话。有好长一段时间，我们各自走上了不同的道路。

FRANCO I ran into Judd [Apatow] at this film festival in Austin. He’s like, “Why don’t you come back to the comedy world?” And I was like, “Yes. I need to change something, because I’m miserable.” I was not happy as an actor, and I went and did “Pineapple Express,” and it was like, Oh, it’s Seth, and I know Seth. I could take huge swings. That made all the difference.

弗兰科：这届奥斯汀电影节上，我遇到了贾德·阿帕图(Judd Apatow)。他说：“你为什么不回到喜剧世界呢？”我说：“对，我需要改变，因为我太悲惨了。”作为演员，我并不开心，然后我就拍了《菠萝快车》(Pineapple Express)，感觉就是，啊，这不是塞斯吗，我认识塞斯。我可以做出巨大的改变。这部片子让一切都不一样了。

Is it helpful to have, in James, an actor who’s also a director in his own right?

|拥有詹姆斯这种做过导演的演员对影片有帮助吗？

ROGEN He gets that we need different stuff. We’ve got to go too far and not far enough. And he’s as much a part of steering that ship as he is an engine. It’s hard for me to focus on everything at once sometimes. And I smoke weed, so that doesn’t help. [Laughter.] Franco remembers better than anyone.

罗根：他理解我们需要不同的东西。我们已经走得很远，但是还不够。他既是一艘大船的舵，同时也是发动机。有时候，我很难同时关注所有东西。我抽大麻，这也没有帮助（笑）。弗兰科的记忆力比别人都好。

FRANCO Because I don’t want to lose good jokes!

弗兰科：因为我不想错过精彩的笑话！

ROGEN Me and Evan, we’re slightly more willing to be, like, “O.K., we got it.” He’s like, “No! You don’t got it! We didn’t do this angle.” It’s constant.

罗根：我和埃文，我们更像这样：“没问题，搞定了。”弗兰科是：“不，你们没搞定！这个角度我们还没拍到。”经常是这样。

FRANCO I know that they pick the best stuff. But I still have this feeling, like, I just want everything to be used. I got the dailies of “Pineapple Express” from David Gordon Green and put a cut together with all the unused jokes.

弗兰科：我知道他们选择了最好的。但我还是有这种感觉：要把一切东西都用上。我从大卫·戈登·格林(David Gordon Green)那里拿来了《菠萝快车》的每日样片，把所有没用上的笑话做了一个剪辑。

In the course of promoting this movie, you’ve parodied Kanye West’s “Bound 2” video, you’ve appeared together on “Naked and Afraid.” Could you do these things if you were just professional acquaintances?

在宣传这部电影的时候，你们戏仿了肯耶·韦斯特的音乐录像《第二轮》，你们还曾经一起在《赤裸与恐惧》(Naked and Afraid)里出现。如果你们只是工作上有关系，还会做这些事情吗？

ROGEN The fact that you’re friends with someone is the most important when you’re promoting a movie. I’ve worked with people I hated, and it’s fine when you’re making a movie. You can go back to your trailer. But when you’re promoting a movie, it’s totally different. You’re seeing them much more in their day-to-day, how-they-actually-are lives.

罗根：你和某人是朋友，这其实是宣传电影时重要的事情。我曾经和我讨厌的人一起工作，拍片子的时候，这没有问题。拍完你就可以回到自己的拖车里去。但宣传一部电影的时候，一切都不一样了。你得天天和他们见很多次面，看到他们真正的日常生活。

FRANCO It’s an adventure.

弗兰科：就像一场冒险。

ROGEN When we did Jimmy Fallon, we were hiding in a cake for 15 minutes.

罗根：我们上吉米·法伦(Jimmy Fallon)的节目时，一起在一个蛋糕里躲了15分钟。

FRANCO It looked like a big cake. It’s not that big inside.

弗兰科：看上去像块大蛋糕，但里面没那么大。

ROGEN We were in the cake so long, we stopped talking about the fact that we were hiding inside a cake. “What are you doing tomorrow?” “Oh, really, what time’s your flight?” Meanwhile, we’re half-naked inside a cake on the stage of “The Tonight Show.”

罗根：我们在蛋糕里呆了太久，后来就根本不提躲在蛋糕里这回事了。“你明天要干什么？”“啊，真的，你的航班是几点？”其实我们是半裸着躲在“今夜秀”舞台上的蛋糕里。

Are there lessons you’ve learned from each other?

你们从彼此身上学到了什么东西？

FRANCO What I want to learn from Seth is, how do you do the movies that you want to do? Seth’s going to produce this movie I’m going to direct about the making of [the Tommy Wiseau cult movie] “The Room,” and I put myself in his hands. I’m happy to do that. It’s a project where I don’t have to fight every step of the way.

弗兰科：我希望能从塞斯身上学到的是：你是怎么拍出你想拍的电影的？下一部电影，塞斯要当制作人，我来做导演，是关于托米·韦素(Tommy Wiseau)的小众电影《房间》(The Room)的制作过程。我把自己交到他手里了。我很高兴这样做。在这部片子里，我用不着全程每一步都自己奋斗了。

ROGEN We were making “Pineapple Express,” filming the scene where I buy the weed from him, and while we’re sitting around, off camera, I was like, “You know what would be funny is if I said it smells ‘like God’s vagina.’ ” But I was like, “That’s too crazy a joke.” The next take, Franco says it and it destroys.

罗根：拍《菠萝快车》时，我们拍到我向他买大麻那场戏，镜头之外，我说：“你知道，如果我说它闻上去像‘上帝的阴道’那就太逗了。”但我又一想，“算了这个笑话太疯狂。”接下来开拍的时候，弗兰科就说了这句台词，简直太棒了。

FRANCO It’s probably on like a million stoners’ T-shirts.

弗兰科：现在这句话估计已经出现在一百万个瘾君子的T恤衫上了。

ROGEN It was my instinct not to say it, for the exact reason that he did say it. It was really an educational moment. If you’re afraid of something, then you should probably do that thing. We’ve made entire movies based on that philosophy.

罗根：我是凭本能说出来的，他也是因为同样的理由才说了这句台词。这真是一个有教育意义的时刻。如果你害怕某件事，或许你就应该去做这件事。我们的所有电影都是建立在这种哲学上。

Would you have done anything differently in “The Interview” if you knew what would happen before its release?

如果你们知道会有这样的后果，那么会不会给《采访》做点改动？

ROGEN That’s a tough question. I was thinking about that, and I honestly have no idea.

罗根：这个问题很难回答。我也想过，诚实地说，我不知道。

Are you reading the hacked material?

你们看过那些被黑客挖出来的材料吗？

ROGEN I’m trying not to. Ethically, I have problems with reading people’s stolen emails.

罗根：我试着不去看。从道德上来说，我不想去看别人被偷挖出来的电子邮件。

Those emails include an assessment by a Sony executive who criticized “The Interview” as “desperately unfunny.” Does that bother you?

这些邮件中有一份索尼管理人员的评估，批评《采访》“非常无趣”，这会让你觉得不爽吗？

ROGEN I don’t know who’s presumably said what. There’s some people that I would find it very bothersome from. There’s others that I would not care at all what they thought of it. [Laughs.]

罗根：我不知道是谁说的。假如我发现这话是某些人说的，我会觉得这很伤脑筋；假如是另外一些人说的，那我根本就不在乎他们怎么想（笑）。

Are you more careful with your email now?

现在你写电子邮件是不是更小心了？

ROGEN [Laughs.] A little bit. I think everyone is. Aren’t you?

罗根（笑）：有一点儿。我觉得大家都是这样的，你不也是吗？